Summary:
Tune in to "Off the Record: Talking Real Estate with Joe and Makayla," your go-to podcast for all things related to the Portland, Oregon real estate market. In this episode, Joe and Makayla delve into the intricacies of moving out of town, sharing essential insights and expert advice for anyone considering relocation, discussing everything from selling your home to buying in a new city. From handling employer assistance to picking the right neighborhood, this episode offers a comprehensive guide for a stress-free move.
Explore the Journey: Joe and shed light on the unique challenges involved in moving into or out of the Portland metro area. They'll guide you through the different scenarios and what to expect in each.
Moving Out Hassle-Free: Planning to leave? Discover crucial factors such as timing your home sale, handling the nitty-gritty of moving logistics, and effective budgeting – especially when employers might (or might not) be lending a hand.
Whip Your Home into Shape: Pro tips for prepping your home for sale, making it sparkle, and maximizing its potential appeal, especially if it's a cozy space under 3000 square feet.
Embrace Your New Neighborhood: Joe and Makayla stress the significance of doing your homework – online city and neighborhood exploration, school checks, commute evaluation, and lifestyle preferences. They also shine a light on the value of a good agent, in-person visits, and creating your personal "pros and cons" list.
Expert Advice Zone: As seasoned brokers for Sotheby's International Realty Joe and Makyla highlight their knack for matching lifestyle dreams with homes, the hosts stress the importance of their expertise in finding the perfect fit in the Portland metro area.
Ready to make a stress-free move to or from the lively Portland metro area? Connect with us for expert advice and personalized guidance to craft your perfect relocation experience.
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00:00:06:23 - 00:00:26:09
Joe
Welcome to Off The Record Talking Real Estate with Joe and Makayla. If you're interested in the Portland, Oregon real estate market and want the unvarnished inside scoop, you've come to the right place. Thanks for giving us all this. All right. Thanks, everyone, for joining us. Makayla, how are you today?
00:00:26:11 - 00:00:28:08
Makayla
I'm so good. It's Friday.
00:00:28:09 - 00:00:30:14
Joe
It's Friday and it's beautiful out.
00:00:30:15 - 00:00:31:18
Makayla
It is warm outside.
00:00:31:19 - 00:00:35:14
Joe
Yeah, it's kind of weirdly warm for our area right now.
00:00:35:16 - 00:00:47:04
Makayla
Yeah It's nice, though. I was showing houses and there were floating homes, which was fun, but it was outside, and I was in this big old sweater. And, yeah, the clouds broke and. Oh, it was hot.
00:00:47:08 - 00:01:12:21
Joe
Yeah. So at least you're on the water. Yes. Yeah, it's very nice. So today we're going to be talking about an interesting topic because we seem to have a lot of clients right now that are either moving into Portland metro area or moving out. Like right now we have, I think, four or five clients whose homes we have on the market that are already relocated to Boston, Massachusetts.
00:01:12:23 - 00:01:38:03
Joe
We have two in Arizona, one in Utah, and we have their homes on the market trying to get those sold. Right now. But I thought it might be good to have a conversation about that because it's a whole different animal when you're moving out of town compared to you're selling your home here and you're moving to something in Lake Oswego or you're selling your home in Northeast, you're moving to another neighborhood not far away, that type of thing.
00:01:38:03 - 00:01:38:22
Joe
You know what I mean?
00:01:39:00 - 00:01:51:01
Makayla
Yeah, I think the most intimidating thing is probably thinking about your next purchase and when you're going to do that and how are you going to time that up financing wise, if you are lucky enough to, you know, use the proceeds from the sale of your home.
00:01:51:03 - 00:02:19:14
Joe
And LivPortland team as actually we are a top broker for Cascade Hasson Sotheby's with corporate relocation. So we do a lot of work with the relocation department at Cascade Hasson Sotheby's. And so we get to see a lot of these SIRVA in a lot of those relocation companies that help facilitate these moves for clients who maybe work for Intel or Nike, you know, those type of places.
00:02:19:17 - 00:02:33:00
Joe
And they have packages that will help and we'll talk about that a little bit. But there's also a lot of people that just make a change and want to make a move. And we've had clients in the last year that have moved to Texas and Idaho, a lot of people moving to Idaho.
00:02:33:00 - 00:02:34:14
Makayla
So many I know
00:02:34:14 - 00:02:35:05
Joe
South Carolina.
00:02:35:05 - 00:02:36:00
Makayla
Yeah.
00:02:36:02 - 00:03:00:03
Joe
Multiple. You had family member member moved there? Mm hmm. And then we also had a past client who we sold an investment property of theirs, and they called us up and we're like, we're moving to South Carolina and sell our home. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's in the air right now, and everyone thinks people are leaving Portland. But in reality, it's just as many people moving from outside the state into Portland.
00:03:00:03 - 00:03:20:16
Joe
So there's this whole dynamic there. But it is a different animal and we thought we'd talk about that here today. So we'll start with when you're selling your home, when you're selling your home and moving to another city, there's a lot of things you got to consider and I know it can be overwhelming. We will typically sit down with our clients and go over a couple of different things timing, how to prepare your home.
00:03:20:16 - 00:03:39:19
Joe
And then, you know, a lot of times people move before their homes, before their homes are sold. So they're we're selling them vacant for them. And that's another situation that I don't think a lot of people really think about. We have clients that just move to New York and their home here in Hillsboro is vacant. It brings up questions, so we'll go over that.
00:03:39:21 - 00:03:54:23
Joe
But let's talk about the timeline first. Makayla, what are the things that people need to think about when you know that you're being relocated or you're making that move to be with family or whatever the reasons are? What things should they be thinking about when it comes to the timeline?
00:03:55:01 - 00:04:11:00
Makayla
I think a big one is if they're going to get help or not from their employer. So if they're relocating based on their job, is their employer going to help with those moving costs? Are they going to help them be on the hunt in their new city or in Portland? So that's, I think, usually our first question.
00:04:11:05 - 00:04:43:21
Joe
Right. And that also spins into if your employer isn't helping. And a lot of times people take new jobs and the company that they're moving to helps or they don't help, but all of that can feed into the conversation of budgeting. So how much do movers cost? And just f why it ain't cheap. No. Yeah. Especially if you use the big trucks, you know, the Atlas van lines and North American van lines and all of those companies that move cross-country, it can get really super expensive.
00:04:43:23 - 00:04:51:17
Joe
If you are working with relocation, a lot of times that's rolled into it and that's a big perk to have. But you need to know those things, right?
00:04:51:17 - 00:04:53:04
Makayla
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:53:06 - 00:05:16:11
Joe
So the other one is when you need to be there if you have a job waiting for you and right now it's almost November and they say, Well, we'd like you to be there in December 1st. That's a lot, right? Between getting your home ready and your family ready, getting yourself ready, figuring out where you're going to land, all those type of things.
00:05:16:11 - 00:05:50:06
Joe
So we've got all those checklist because, you know, we've been doing this. I've been doing this 28 years. And Makayla was a grizzled vet. Now she's gone through the wars and knows how all this works, but we make sure to have a checklist in place. And when you find out that you're going to be leaving Portland right when you're selling and moving out of town, we highly recommend you get in touch with your trusted professionals, your real estate professional, your mortgage professional, and really figure out what your standing is as far as what you're on the other side, what you're going to be buying and purchasing.
00:05:50:06 - 00:05:55:00
Joe
And then also here on this side, getting up and running as quickly as possible, don't you think?
00:05:55:02 - 00:05:56:09
Makayla
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:56:11 - 00:06:26:15
Joe
So preparing your home for sale is the next phase, right? And we always talk about having that consultation, having your real estate broker over to do the walkthrough, tell you what you need to be doing to get your home ready. And there's a couple of things, right? Whether your things are still going to be there or if your things are going to be gone, and most of the time your things are going to be gone in the House is going to be vacant, which is a great opportunity for painting, for different maintenance items and those type of things.
00:06:26:15 - 00:06:38:06
Joe
I'm always curious about vacant homes. I'm always, you know, people always ask, should we stage it? What goes into that? You know, what are the costs of that type of things? What are your thoughts on staging?
00:06:38:08 - 00:07:01:06
Makayla
I have such mixed feelings about staging because it's so expensive for one, like we're talking potentially a couple thousand dollars and you know, you might only be able to use their furniture for a month. Yeah. When I tour a home with buyers, I really like when it's empty, actually. I think it gives them an opportunity to see the space in their own eyes with their own furniture in it.
00:07:01:08 - 00:07:16:19
Makayla
And, you know, I think you trying to stage it yourself, obviously that probably won't be the case here, but trying to stage it with your own furniture can get kind of fuzzy because, you know, you've had the home a certain way for so long and you have your own vision looking company to. Yeah, like having.
00:07:16:20 - 00:07:19:19
Joe
A half lived in half not, which is always kind of off putting.
00:07:19:22 - 00:07:34:21
Makayla
Yeah. If you're just leaving. So you leave the couch and that's the only thing in the house. Yeah, I agree. That can look kind of awkward. So I think it depends on the home. I think for smaller homes, I wouldn't be comfortable saying that it doesn't need to be staged. It can be completely vacant.
00:07:35:02 - 00:07:55:07
Joe
Yeah. Homes, I have. My rule of thumb has always been anything under 3000 square feet. It looks larger when it's vacant. Right. And people's perception is that there's so much space for them to use. And I always think that that's a positive. Right? You want the home to look as big as possible and like you said, to be able to make it their own.
00:07:55:09 - 00:08:13:03
Makayla
Yeah. And we're talking about homes that are larger than 3000 square feet. I wouldn't even suggest staging the bedrooms. I think, you know, a lot of times people spend a ton of money and time putting up these beautiful beds and, you know, maybe four or five bedrooms. And I think that's can feel like a waste of time.
00:08:13:03 - 00:08:25:00
Joe
I think the living room, the dining room, some items in the kitchen may be the master. And that's it. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about when you're buying a home in a different city.
00:08:25:05 - 00:08:26:19
Makayla
That's the exciting part.
00:08:26:21 - 00:08:30:23
Joe
I think. So. I love to travel. I love seeing different places.
00:08:31:02 - 00:08:36:05
Makayla
Yeah. And just the idea of a blank slate and getting to choose your neighborhood.
00:08:36:05 - 00:08:44:19
Joe
And I don't think a lot of people like that that maybe it's 5050. I think there's a lot more anxiety for a lot of people. The unknown, right?
00:08:44:20 - 00:08:45:19
Makayla
Yeah, I could see that.
00:08:45:22 - 00:09:05:14
Joe
But the chance to get a feel for a new city, how the culture is there, how everything operates. And there are such huge differences between the East Coast, the West Coast, the South and Midwest. It's nuts. I grew up in the Midwest and it's a shocker.
00:09:05:16 - 00:09:08:06
Makayla
This is a whole different world over here on the West Coast.
00:09:08:11 - 00:09:32:16
Joe
It really, really is. And yeah, we could do a whole podcast on all the cultural differences around the country, but it's exciting and I think eventually people will look at it as an opportunity. Whatever, you know, they're making a choice. And whether it be for lifestyle or family or job, there's a reason behind it. And I think there's the biggest anxiety is probably around housing. You know what I mean?
00:09:32:18 - 00:09:37:05
Makayla
Yeah, I would think so. I want to buy on the wrong part of town.
00:09:37:07 - 00:09:58:09
Joe
Right. And you're putting down roots and how do you know? And oh my gosh, it's been so long since I've bought a home maybe, and all those different type of things. So we're going to talk about some of the biggest things to think about and, you know, just upfront, there's going to be some homework, right? You got to do some research.
00:09:58:09 - 00:10:07:01
Joe
You can't just say, Oh, I'm moving to Boston and I'm just going to plop down here and I'm sure I'll figure it out. You can do it that way, but I don't know.
00:10:07:01 - 00:10:14:09
Makayla
Yeah, it seems a little risky. Yeah. How do you suggest getting to know a city that might be thousands of miles away?
00:10:14:11 - 00:10:36:20
Joe
Well, obviously, you would want to take a visit. I mean, that would be the best case scenario, and we can talk about that in a minute. But I think upfront, there's the Internet. You've heard of the Internet, right? so you can get to know your new city online and read reviews and there's all sorts of great information on, on everywhere.
00:10:36:20 - 00:10:56:16
Joe
I mean, you look at how much information we put on our website about all the different neighborhoods and areas in Portland metro area. You can learn a ton and sometimes it's difficult, you know, doing all that legwork to try to figure out, okay, where do I go to find all this? And I'm Googling it, but I'm not finding anything that's good and all that sort of stuff.
00:10:56:16 - 00:11:04:15
Joe
But I think just going online and and really just start poking around and the government websites are actually really good.
00:11:04:17 - 00:11:05:13
Makayla
Yeah, Really?
00:11:05:15 - 00:11:34:10
Joe
Yeah. So like Hillsboro has a great website if you just Google moving to Hillsboro, Oregon. Hillsboro.gov has a lot of great resources, you know, talks about neighborhoods and different areas like that. And I think most cities have that stuff. But do your homework, get to know your new city. The neighborhoods and schools are super important. If you have kids, obviously you want to get them into a school district that fits what you want your kids to be experiencing.
00:11:34:12 - 00:11:55:02
Joe
And that's a big one. A lot of great stuff online. In fact, why don't we put some stuff on livportland.com if you get a livportland.com and click on our blog and go to this episode we'll have some information on great schools dot org I think it is and some different ways to look for neighborhoods and schools and different cities and that type of thing.
00:11:55:07 - 00:12:23:23
Joe
The other thing is traffic and commuting. If I was working like let's say here in Portland or Hillsboro, if I was working at Intel, I probably don't want to be looking at homes in my council, Longview campus or something like that. Right. Great spots, don't get me wrong, but that would just be setting myself up for failure. So really diving into it and figuring out what the city is all about, how it's put together, where you think you want to be.
00:12:23:23 - 00:12:45:02
Joe
And a lot of that is probably based around your job. We have some tools that we use and we just had some clients move from Napa, California up here to Hillsboro, and they wanted to buy a home within 20 minutes, driving between seven and 8 a.m. and we were able to do that. Our our M.S. has a great tool, and I think most MLS around the country do as well.
00:12:45:02 - 00:12:52:05
Joe
Yeah, where we can plug that information in and it'll pull all the homes that are for sale within that driving radius. Right?
00:12:52:08 - 00:12:59:19
Makayla
I love that feature. And especially for schools, if you're going to be a certain elementary school, you don't want to be trekking all the way across town.
00:12:59:19 - 00:13:14:01
Joe
And it's cool because you can put different points in. I want my work, my wife's work, my husband's work, our kids school, something in that triangle right there. Give us something within ten or 15 minutes of all that and we can plug that in and make that work for you, which is kind of cool.
00:13:14:02 - 00:13:15:00
Makayla
Yeah, that's a good feature.
00:13:15:03 - 00:13:30:04
Joe
Yeah. The other thing that we highly recommend, and I'm still not seeing a lot of people do this, which is crazy, is you need to hire the best possible agent you can find for the city moving too, right? Yeah.
00:13:30:05 - 00:13:35:10
Makayla
I mean, someone who knows the city. Yeah, seems so. Yeah, obvious, but.
00:13:35:10 - 00:13:53:21
Joe
And you know, sometimes people, maybe they have friends or family in the area, and if they have a longtime broker that they've been using, great. That's a great referral. More times than not, it doesn't really happen that way, especially if you're moving somewhere where you don't really know a ton of people. And that's where we encourage people to reach out to your broker.
00:13:53:21 - 00:14:13:04
Joe
Like we have clients all the time who are moving to different places. When we find that out, I always say, and I know you do too, I always tell them, Hey, do you need help with finding the best possible broker for you in town? And we actually interview them for them. We find out what our client's criteria are, what they're looking for, and also who they like working with.
00:14:13:09 - 00:14:33:00
Makayla
I was going to say, so much of it is a personality match. Like we recommend interviewing brokers maybe 2 to 3 over them and they might have amazing qualifications and check all of your boxes, but maybe you guys just don't vibe really well. Maybe you don't have a lot in common. And that's going to be really telling to how your experience is going to go.
00:14:33:00 - 00:14:39:17
Makayla
If they can't recommend a lifestyle for you in this new city that matches what you're looking for, that's going to be really hard.
00:14:39:19 - 00:14:49:07
Joe
And a lot of people are so busy right now that the last thing they want to do is start figuring out, okay, who's a good broker? And what criteria should I be looking for?
00:14:49:07 - 00:14:53:04
Makayla
And we all look the same online. I mean, just a name and a face.
00:14:53:06 - 00:14:54:06
Joe
Yeah, that's true.
00:14:54:07 - 00:14:55:11
Makayla
Some reviews, hopefully.
00:14:55:11 - 00:15:18:12
Joe
And some reviews. Hopefully our But we've got it down to a science where I and I actually enjoy it. I love picking three or four agents in a marketplace. What I will do is I look at the Sotheby's network first and foremost, because their experience brokers and I can call the principal broker and say, Hey, I've got clients moving from Portland, Oregon, and they're really looking for an agent that has these qualities.
00:15:18:12 - 00:15:39:22
Joe
Who would you recommend? Great talking to three or four of them, finding the best one or two, and then setting up a Zoom meeting for our clients to have a quick conversation with them. We do all the legwork upfront front. We get everything put together, send them a package and with a resume and everything of each one of those brokers, and then they can just sit down and see who their connection is worth, you know?
00:15:40:00 - 00:15:41:01
Makayla
Yeah, I love that.
00:15:41:05 - 00:15:44:03
Joe
Yeah. The other thing like we talked about is taking a visit.
00:15:44:06 - 00:15:46:11
Makayla
It's on to.
00:15:46:13 - 00:16:09:01
Joe
Work. You can? Yeah, a lot of times people can for all sorts of different reasons, and that makes it a little scary, I think. But going out and visiting the city, having your neighborhoods in areas that you want to visit and schools, when we get people from out of town, if they have kids, we try to find the right fit for what they're looking for school district wise.
00:16:09:01 - 00:16:36:10
Joe
And maybe it's public school, maybe it's private schools or anything like that. And then we get the meetings. And I love doing that because it gives them confidence and it gives them a lot better feeling about what they're doing when they know that they're putting their kids in a good spot and being able to go to the school and have that conversation with someone at that school, some representative to ask questions, maybe take a quick tour, have them describe what the school is all about.
00:16:36:10 - 00:16:58:01
Joe
That type of stuff is so valuable. And I started doing that about ten years ago. And before then I didn't think anything of it. But afterwards, friend of mine, all the broker mentioned that and we started doing that and it was the best dang thing. People, when you have kids, you want the best for them so much and to feel good about where they're ending up.
00:16:58:01 - 00:17:00:06
Joe
So I highly recommend it.
00:17:00:08 - 00:17:05:08
Makayla
Yeah, I'd recommend doing a day just interviewing schools and then a day during.
00:17:05:08 - 00:17:22:12
Joe
Homes and it might not even be homes on that visit. It might just be neighborhoods. Yeah, because a lot of times when you take that visit, you're sometimes you're not even sure you're going to make that move yet. Right. And even if you are sure that you're making the move, do you have your home on the market yet and ready to make an offer?
00:17:22:12 - 00:17:37:02
Joe
Non contingent or you know is your home even on the market yet those type of things so getting schools dialed in if you have kids and then figuring out the neighborhoods in the towns and asking recommendations you mentioned this the other day.
00:17:37:04 - 00:17:54:03
Makayla
I have a list in progress for each little area in the Portland metro. And yeah, with restaurant recommendations where to park, where to walk, you know, all of those types of things. So I think that's fun and important for people to have. Yeah, when they go visit.
00:17:54:09 - 00:18:14:15
Joe
Yeah, I love the restaurants. You know, that recommendation is the best when you're like, Oh, I know a great spot for you, but asking when you go to a city, hey, we're going to be staying at this part of town. And what do you recommend for, you know, a spot for dinner that can really make or break for me at least my experience.
00:18:14:16 - 00:18:28:05
Joe
Yeah. And have a great meal at, you know, someplace that's hopefully a little unique to the city or the town or whatever. It's just a great feeling that you get moving to moving out to a place that you don't know and getting a good meal.
00:18:28:06 - 00:18:41:13
Makayla
Yeah, And you can I mean, obviously look on Yelp and all of those things and do the research yourself, but it becomes a pain and you're like, what area is the saying? I don't even understand it. So yeah, I think it's a, yeah, it's a really cool insider thing to get to have access to.
00:18:41:15 - 00:19:03:17
Joe
The other last thing I think I'll mention about taking a visit is to take lots of notes and pictures. Yeah, because when you get back and when you're talking to your husband or your wife, or if you're just thinking about it yourself a lot of times, man, it's a whirlwind and you're getting so much information. And it was like, Well, was which neighborhood was that?
00:19:03:17 - 00:19:20:17
Joe
Was it this one or that one or what school did we talk to that one guy or what neighbor had the neighborhood had these type of homes or that type of homes. So taken some notes and taken photos so that later on, when you're trying to process all that, you can go back and go, Oh yeah, that's what it was.
00:19:20:18 - 00:19:22:06
Makayla
Yeah, agree more homework.
00:19:22:09 - 00:19:52:07
Joe
So in the vein of relocating to another city, I wanted to just throw out there that if you have friends or family, coworkers, whoever that are making that big move, send them this podcast or send them our way because we can do a lot of the upfront work as far as finding them and agent making sure that it's good Fed doing the whole interview process and also getting a lot of information for them that helps them make this whole process a lot easier.
00:19:52:09 - 00:19:58:07
Joe
It's just one of those things that we do. It's a service that I feel like not many people know about.
00:19:58:13 - 00:20:18:06
Makayla
Yeah, and I think we've really gotten good at this sector of our business, and so it feels good to know that we'll be able to take good care of people. And I think it also aligns with our brokerage. So Sotheby's International Realty, if you go to their website, they focus on lifestyle. So they have a whole dropdown where you, you know, are you a skier?
00:20:18:06 - 00:20:27:22
Makayla
Do you want to live in the city and are at the coast? Who knows? Whatever it is, learning what someone's lifestyle is is so crucial to how we make that match. So you have.
00:20:27:22 - 00:20:31:15
Joe
Dogs, you have to go to the parks. Are you a restaurant person?
00:20:31:16 - 00:20:46:16
Makayla
Yeah. I just typed out a whole list of dog parks for a client yesterday. Did you really? Yeah, I did. It was. I don't know. It's rewarding. I liked it. Fun. They appreciated it. And I was able to tell them, you know, which one was actually fenced and not fenced, and they loved it, and it made their nice sense better.
00:20:46:16 - 00:20:50:01
Makayla
I think so. I love it. Yeah, we have lots of tools. Yeah.
00:20:50:03 - 00:21:11:02
Joe
We are lucky with the network that we have at Sotheby's. I mean, it's incredible the presence that we have around the country. And, you know, for those people that don't know this, Portland was the last large metro area in the United States that did not have a Sotheby's franchise until one was a 2015, I think maybe 1415 that we started up here in Portland.
00:21:11:02 - 00:21:36:08
Joe
And the network is so established. We're I mean, we're now the largest Sotheby's Cascade House, and Sotheby's is now the largest company in the state of Oregon, which is cool, happening in only eight years. But around the nation, they are so strong and it's an incredible amount of experience and really talented brokers. That being said, when we go looking for brokers, it's not always just Sotheby's brokers.
00:21:36:08 - 00:21:49:00
Joe
It's it can be outside of Sotheby's as well. And we've often if if the fit is right for someone outside of Sotheby's, we absolutely make that connection for our clients. But it's a really, really cool network. We'll have some information on the Portland outcome of.
00:21:49:00 - 00:21:49:15
Makayla
Course.
00:21:49:15 - 00:21:50:17
Joe
That we helpful.
00:21:50:19 - 00:21:52:19
Makayla
Yes. Yes.
00:21:52:21 - 00:21:55:02
Joe
Okay. Anything else, Makayla?
00:21:55:03 - 00:21:56:04
Makayla
Not that I can think of.
00:21:56:05 - 00:22:21:16
Joe
Yeah. It's a it's a big deal when you decide to pick yourself up, pick your family out, pick your, you know, you and your wife, your husband, whoever, and move outside of town and go somewhere else, whether you're coming in to Portland Metro or leaving and getting help. I think upfront and having people that can take some of these things off your plate is so incredibly important.
00:22:21:18 - 00:22:32:22
Joe
So we're here for you. If you guys need help, reach out and we'll have some resources on live Portland E-Com. Feel free to go there. But for now, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.
00:22:33:00 - 00:22:33:21
Makayla
Thank you.
00:22:33:23 - 00:22:37:00
Joe
Bye.
00:22:37:01 - 00:22:49:23
Makayla
Thanks for joining us today. If you're interested in finding out more about Joe, myself or the live Portland team, you can go to live Portland dot com. Thanks for giving us a listen and see you next time on the Off the Record podcast.
